Senate Reform

[nickjbor]

this is the closest forum I can find to post this in. I want to know your guy's thoughts on Senate Reform?
I'm a pretty fanatical supporter of Senate Reform, and literally joined the Canadian Alliance for a week (violaton of NDP rules) till the federal secretary called me on the phone. We talked for 30 minutes, and he told me the NDP's official policy is the abolition of the un-elected senate. I think what I read into that is if some other force, AKA the conservative party, were to reform the senate, that we could agree with them possibly.

Here is my stance on reform.

Powers
We need a powerful senate. It should either keep its current powers, or have its power to veto VONC's removed.

Elected?
How will we elect our senators?
There are a few ways to do it. The least democratic, yet, perhaps most representive, is to dole out senate seats, based on the proportion of seats each party has in the provincial legislature. This would ensure the provinces are represented!
One thing I prefer strongly, is having provincial parties, not federal parties, run. To have senate elections at the same time as provincial elections. I think that we should either use a form of Proportional Representaiton, or the preferential ballot (like the tories are using for their leadership, where you rank candidates, 1..2..3..)
I strongly perfer elected senators, but, IMHO, we need a way of keeping the provincial parties on top of things. The senate must be made to represent the provinces, and the best way to do that is with provincial political parties. I think you'd end up seeing PCers sitting togethor, but they'd also sit with "Liberals" from Quebec and BC. It could be interesting.

Seat Distribution
It would be nice of Quebec woke up tomarrow and said "EEE's a great idea", but the chances of that happening are about the same as the chance that I'll be elected Prime Minister
We need to come up with some comrpomises. Anyone unwilling to negotiate gets something horrible, if your willing to compromise, at least you'll get something you can stomach.
One of my suggestions is the 50-50 system. To take 50 seats, give them equally to each province (5 each), then take 50, and distribute them based on population. what you end up with is:
ON-24
PQ-17
BC-12
AB-10
MB-7
SK-7
NS-6
NB-6
NL-6
PE-5

I think this could work.
Another idea, proposed by a BC semi-sepratist, and modified by me, takes into account population trends. Alberta and BC's population are heading straight for Quebec's population. in 50 years, these 3 provinces will have similar population numbers. Therefore, lets plan the senate accordingly.
24 seats for Ontario
24 seats for Quebec
24 seats for BC
and 24 seats for Alberta while 24 is too many seats for alberta right now, when they hit 12.5% of the population, this is when they should go from 18 to 24 seats.
The remaining provinces and territories should get 48 seats total.

ON-24
PQ-24
BC-24
AB-18/24
MB-9
SK-9
NS-8
NB-7
NL-7
PE-5
TR-3 (territories)


I think this is the only thing that will work... whaddya you guys think?

[Splendor Sine Occasu]

I'm a big proponent of EEE Senate (obviously not as big as Benny, but I don't think anyone is ).

Having said that, it may take stages. First stage would be for the prime minister to appoint senators that are elected by their province.

Maybe I'm optimistic, but I believe that through reason, Ontario and Quebec could be persuaded that equal representation of provinces in the senate is a good thing. They will still retain their domination in the House of Commons since it is represented by population, but it will be balanced by the concerns of the provinces. Thus you will get legislation that is more thought out and balanced. Parties would have to work together. This may take longer, but no one said democracy is a timed event.

The one thing I always say about equality in the senate, is if every other western nations' upper house is equally divided amongst their states (US, Australia, I think Germany...) why can't we? California and New York have the same number of senators as Delaware and Montana; New South Wales the same as Tasmania. Why can't Prince Edward Island have the same number of senators as Ontario?

As well, provincial legislatures should have their own senates, again to balance out the interests of the population with the interests of regions.

I believe that if the senate is abolished, nothing is changed. We will still have the dictatorship of the House of Commons, no matter what party is in power.

[nickjbor]

I had an idea that might work for EEE
no province can have more senators then they have MP's
PEI does not have the population (or the competent politicians) for 6 senators.
I think each province should have 12 senators. NS, NB, NL, and PE would all get less. 11, 10, 7, and 4 respectivley.

I actually think we should have some appointed senators, maybe 6 or 10 or something. but their term should end at the end of the term of the federal government (AKA, each election)

[Psycho]

The NDP supports abolishing an unelected Senate???

See everyone, there is an NDP policy I support

[Psycho]

But only one methinks

[Grig]

Well, if you are going to blue sky it, how about this:

Each province gets the same number of senators, and not a whole bunch either. Something like 4 should be fine. Each senator is a senator for the whole province but can have a portfolio, with the longest serving senator the Sr. senator for the province.

I like that idea of having them run as members of a provincial party, but would want them directly elected, either at the time of federal elections or as a spearate, regular election cycle.

Bills die if they fail to get a 50% +1 vote in the senate. Also, if ALL the senators from one provice vote against a bill (that's what I don't want too many senators, plus they are expensive), then the provincial government has the option of invoking a veto (it must be passed by the provincial government like a bill) within a certain time frame. A veto can be overturned if 3 other provincial government (and all the senators of those provinces) vote to overturn it within a certain time frame.

[nickjbor]

well, I dont like the veto idea. I also think we need a good number of senators per province. The senate has many commitee's that do good work, we dont want to lose those.
I would not mind to see multiple-senator ridings, but province-wide senators would not work IMHO.
honestly, I think each province should decide how to elect it's senators. The only rules would be that the senators must be elected, they must comply with provincial electoral law (hence, use provincial parties) and senators cannot have a term longer then 5 years (through they can be re-elected)
PEI would do well with this, but think about people in Cape Breton! my god, they'd be up in arms!! I would specifically designate senators to places like Cape Breton, Labrador, and Acadian NB. I actually drew up senate ridings way back when. Northern MB, and SK should have a senator each, etc. This is why we need a fair number of senators, so we can distirbute them this way.

[Splendor Sine Occasu]

PEI would do well with this, but think about people in Cape Breton! my god, they'd be up in arms!! I would specifically designate senators to places like Cape Breton, Labrador, and Acadian NB. I actually drew up senate ridings way back when. Northern MB, and SK should have a senator each, etc. This is why we need a fair number of senators, so we can distirbute them this way.

Well in that case, how about Vancouver Island, Lower Mainland, Southern Interior (BC), Cariboo (BC), Northwest (BC), Peace-Liard (BC), Southern Alberta, Northern Alberta...the point is, all of these regions are very different from each other. On the national level for senators, do we really need each little region of the country represented? In a perfect world, I would say yes, but we do have to be realisitic.

[Boydfish]

One of my suggestions is the 50-50 system. To take 50 seats, give them equally to each province (5 each), then take 50, and distribute them based on population. what you end up with is:
ON-24
PQ-17
BC-12
AB-10
MB-7
SK-7
NS-6
NB-6
NL-6
PE-5

I'm not sure what it is with Canadians and their ability to do math, but if Quebec has 7 million people and BC and Alberta have 7 million people, then they should have exactly the same amount. OK, maybe I could see a one seat difference, but 5? Especially considering that Alberta and BC get two "five seat minimums" in that equation. Check your math.

That aside, a senate that is not equal for each province is simply a replication of the Parliament and of little value. I'd see a value in using your system as a basis for the Parliament, but wouldn't it be simpler to apply a basic system of each x people(Or fraction thereof) in a province give it one MP?

[nickjbor]

actually, by being off by 5, my math is dead on

this is how the formula works.

Ontario - 5 "equal seats"
Quebec - 5
PEI -5

now, you add the seats by population

PEI - 0
Alberta - 5
BC - 7
Quebec - 12
Ontario - 19

total it, and that's what you get. It kinda makes a "soft" curve based on population.

[Grig]

well, I dont like the veto idea.

Why not? Are you opposed to any kind of veto power or just this form of veto power?

I do like the idea of the senate as an extention of the provincial government, instead of a Tory or Liberal caucus in the senate, you have an Ontario and and Alberta and a BC caucus.

[nickjbor]

allowing a province to veto something causes a huge NIMBY sindrome.

here's a slightly askew example

the government says
"we need 1 billion dollars, we are going to split it amongst the provinces"
all 10 provinces veto
then what?

or an example on a minicipal level
"we need to put a trash heap in someone's back yard... any voulenteers?"

[Bruce-Grey-OS Reformer]

My riding(Reform/Alliance) put forth a resolution that would have seen a fourth E added to the Senate reform mix which would have been Equal representation between rural and urban voters in each province. In Ontario if you were to have Senators elected at large, 21 0r 22 of the 24 current Senators in Ontario would come from the urban areas. By having equal representation between rural and urban the split would be 12/12, elections Canada already divides polls up based on a rural/urban bases so it would be easy to do. This E would ensure rural interests are represented in the national parliament.

[nickjbor]

I am gonna make a map up... one sec...

[nickjbor]

map moved

here's Ontario, divided into 6 senate divisions.
you can have 12, 18, 24, ets, senators by electing multiple senators from each division. thoughts? (note, the north is one division, but is barly shown on the map)