OK, let's talk about Marc Lemire

Documenting free speech attacks by Richard Warman, Warren Kinsella, the Human Rights Commissions and others who would seek to silence conservative discourse in Canada.

Postby Maikeru » 10/ 04/ 09 3:40 pm

free_life2 wrote:
Maikeru wrote:
free_life2 wrote:We are aware ...
We believe...
Unlike you Harry who continues to try and dismantle our rights and freedoms
It is also understood by us...
There is no need for anyone to second the opinions of others to their own.
Harry can argue equally that he is employing Canadian 'rights' that I personally, and others, consider an appalling intrusion on free society.

FreeDominion members are a prime example of folks who agree to disagree over everything under the sun (and especially global warming)... :)
Which of these two do you disagree with? And now you claim to be talking for the 'others', but I shouldn't? :roll:
I apologize for not making myself clear.
I am not aware of Harry's association with Heritage Front members, who, according to a Macleans article I posted some time ago were about as numerous as a small-town bowling league, and who were organized and funded, primarily, by a CSIS member.

I have no idea whether Marc Lemire is guilty or not of any crime against the Canadian people.
I agree with you, and personally believe from what I've read here and elsewhere, that he is not what he is represented to be by those who have persecuted him for the reasons they do, or even that such charges are crimes against the Canadian people.

When I say 'I, and others', I have in mind particular people whom I know agree with the statement referenced.

I avoid the 'we' word, and chastise others for using it - especially in debate I am engaged in which has differing points of view - as such expression is what promotes the group over the individual, the ultimate extension being 'human rights' hate speech nonsense (in my opinion).
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Postby Narrow Back » 10/ 04/ 09 3:43 pm

I started this thread because I sincerely wanted to know if Lemire was the monster he has been made out to be. So far, he has been accused of some guilt by association by Harry. That's it. George Soros doesn't get this much flak and he helped send fellows Jews to the camps! I guess if you are on the right team it doesn't matter. Dr. Dawg is another example that comes to mind. But he's friendly with the great and awe inspiring Harry Abrams, so no harm no foul. I am sure I could compile a long list of these hypocrisies.

As for Marc, I have known friends I grew up with who also associated with the likes of Zundel and co. Guess what? They grew up and figured it out. People must have the right to be wrong and to change their minds. In Marc's case, he has been branded a witch forever. It's like blood in the carpet; it's all but impossible to get out.

Here is a very good example of the tarring he has taken.


MARC LEMIRE: A CAUTIONARY NOTE
Wednesday, March 5, 2008, 11:17 PM

Image
Who is that man in the dark shades? [Source: Nizkor]


A few right-wing bloggers have taken to defending Marc Lemire, one of the leaders of the neo-Nazi Heritage Front.

This Metro Toronto report tells you a bit about Lemire and his fellow racists. What it doesn't tell you is why some conservatives have taken leave of their senses, and are promoting him.

Like Werner said: when you lie down with dogs...well, you know the rest.

http://warrenkinsella.com/index.php?ent ... 305-231734

Here are the comments from that page:

I thought that was Ernst Zundel? Or is Lemire the guy in the hilarious "I'm a stormtrooper bodyguard" outfit?

Why is that man wearing a hard hat?
Rick Jones | 03.06.08 - 7:07 am | #

This entire report is a chilling read. The chapter on Mark Lemire written by Bill Dunphy puts into perspective the important role Lemire fulfills in the white supremacist movement. I mean he was one of the originators of the Heritage front and is young enough then to be around today as one of its outspoken (hopefully last) vestiges. All this to better point out that those who play in the sandbox with Marc Lemire risk being rightly painted as a supporter of his historical racist cause.

I also point out the the chapters in this report on Canada's anti-hate laws are the best explanation of their history and importance I have read to date. Thanks for this Warren.
Mordechai | 03.06.08 - 7:44 am | #

From my own post on the Lemire case:

"Marc Lemire, the respondent in this proceeding, has been a fixture on extremist and Holocaust-denial websites and message boards for years. (He even worked for Ernst Zundel. 'Nuff said.) ...Lemire might be a despicable character, but he's been turned into a free-speech martyr by the very process that was supposed to shut him down. There's a lesson there, but some people will do their best not to learn it."

This is similar to the argument I've seen most conservative bloggers (including Levant and Currie) make, and I don't see how it can be considered "promotion" of Lemire and his views, any more than speaking out against Guantanamo Bay means you're "promoting terrorism."

I agree wholeheartedly that Lemire is a hatemonger - I just don't agree with your views on how to deal with him. Do you genuinely not understand this, or are you just ignoring it in favor of a cheap rhetorical point?
Damian P. | Homepage | 03.06.08 - 8:22 am | #

Don't like what they say so you try to shut them up with the law. Do you even understand the concept of Free Speech?
Mark | 03.06.08 - 9:53 am | #

Well we seem to agree that lemire is a hatemonger. Agreement is a good thing. I also hope we would agree that making any common cause with the likes of Lemire is a bad thing no matter where you are on the political mainstream spectrum.

Ok so we can agree to disagree on the usefulness of anti-hate laws but lets not use Nazis, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, hatemongers and the like as martyrs giving them martyr status. There are enough egregious examples out there without raising these despicable people to any level that makes them look heroic.
J Chapel | 03.06.08 - 10:06 am | #

If section 13 didn't exist, Lemire would not be a martyr. he would be on the fringes of the internet, and given the attention his views deserve, which is none.

It is the hate speech laws that have turned him into a martyr.
Elizabeth | 03.06.08 - 1:10 pm | #

" Well we seem to agree that lemire is a hatemonger. Agreement is a good thing. I also hope we would agree that making any common cause with the likes of Lemire is a bad thing no matter where you are on the political mainstream spectrum. "

You really don't get it, do you?

I never thought I'd be using Niemoller to defend "the likes of Lemire" but here goes ...

First they came for the Holocaust-deniers and I did not speak out because I was not a Holocaust-denier.

You probably won't get that either, not goodthinkful enough for you.
The Friction Of The Day | Homepage | 03.06.08 - 1:27 pm | #

Friction, the only one who doesnt really get it is you.

How else to make this clear to you?

You are against section 13 of the CHRC...good for you. There are legit cases that you can easily point to in order to make a good argument. The Steyn and yes even the Levant cases inmmediatley spring to mind. There are others.

Why would you or anyone else hold someone, who we all agree is a hatemonger, out as the poster-boy for this argument? I can only come to the conclusion that those who do admire this hatemonger for what he is and have common cause with him. Otherwise why have anything to do with him? Get it now??
Mordechai | 03.06.08 - 4:42 pm | #

Poor The Friction Of The Day, not so good with the reading...
Cameron | 03.06.08 - 7:54 pm | #

These people are loathsome scumbags, but I think they should have the right to speak their mind, and be treated by sane society with the contempt and revulsion they deserve.

To ban them from speaking or put them in jail brings us a lot closer to becoming the kind of repressive totalitarian society that they would like to create, and if anything gives them far more attention than they deserve.

One lesson of history that should not be lost on us is that the best thing the mainstream can do to promote and strengthen any group of fringe extremists is to attack and persecute it.
ted | 03.06.08 - 9:41 pm | #

Mordechai,

First they came for the Holocaust-deniers and I did not speak out because I was not a Holocaust-denier.

Then they came for the journalists and magazine publishers and I did not speak out because I was not a journalist or a magazine publisher.

Do you not see where this is going? Or do you just believe that it will never happen to you? After all, nobody could ever take offence at what you say or write .... right?

To be honest with you, I'm not holding him out as a poster-boy for anything. I don't necessarily agree with "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".

"I can only come to the conclusion that those who do admire this hatemonger for what he is and have common cause with him."

If you equate 'common cause' with having a suspicious feeling that a body with a 100% conviction rate is a bit suspicious then yes, I have common cause with Marc Lemire.

If you equate "admire" with believing that 'freedom of speech' is a Canadian value (whatever the CHRC may wish/force you to believe) then yes, I have common cause with Marc Lemire.

This 'freedom of speech' debate makes strange bedfellows of us all. I guess you can only hope that the CHRCs are never full of conservatives. Were that to ever be the case, you might find yourself making strange bedfellows too.

"Otherwise why have anything to do with him? Get it now??"

Oh, don't fool yourself. I 'get' your argument entirely. The thing is, Marc Lemire's fight against the HRCs is Mark Steyn's fight against the HRCs is Ezra Levant's fight against the HRCs is Maclean's fight against the HRCs is every nutjob's fight against the HRCs.

You're either unwilling or unable to acknowledge that it's mine and your fight too. They just haven't come for us yet.
The Friction Of The Day | Homepage | 03.07.08 - 2:19 am | #

In my view the measure of a decent society is the manner in which it treats its most vulnerable minorities. By establishing law that curtails the most vile and hateful of speech protects our minority communities. BTW it seems that virtually every western democracy from Great Britain to France, to Italy, Gemany, Finland all have similar laws on the books. It makes eminent sense to all democratic countries.
Mordechai | 03.07.08 - 7:54 am | #

Mordechai:
"everyone else is doing it" is not a valid a reason to do anything, particularly infringe on freedom of speech.

Letting hatemongers talk is the best defense for "vulnerable minorities." When they self-identify, that allows the police and the minorities to know who the bad guys are.

Also, when they spout their vile racist nonsense, they can be ridiculed and held up as examples of the opposite of how good, civilized people think of other human beings.

Shutting them down solves nothing.
John | 03.07.08 - 10:01 am | #

John, you have too much faith in the marketplace of ideas. Free western democracies justifiably decided that there has to be reasonable limits on speech so as to protect society. Hence our own Supremem Court found our anti-hate laws, including Section 13 (1) and (2)of the CHRA. It is our top law making and finding body. Frankly I put my trust in it as a reasonable arbiter.

On a related matter do you also feel that laws of slander and libel ought also to be abolished allowing individuals to take their chances within the market place of ideas ?
Mordechai | 03.08.08 - 12:39 pm | #




By the way, does anyone know how old Marc Lemire is? I met him a couple of years ago and I figured he was around 30. I'm bad at guessing ages though.
I am a Canadian, free to speak without fear, free to worship in my own way, free to stand for what I think right, free to oppose what I believe wrong, or free to choose those who shall govern my country. This heritage of freedom I pledge to uphold for myself and all mankind.
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Postby Jason Kauppinen » 10/ 04/ 09 3:55 pm

Image

Why is this photo cropped?
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"Back in 1215, if you read Magna Carta Libertatum (my italics; I don’t think they had ’em back then), human rights meant the King was restrained by his subjects. Eight hundred years later, “human rights” CHRC-style means that the subjects get restrained by the Crown, in the form of Queen Jennifer. I liked it better the old way." -Mark Steyn
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Postby Maikeru » 10/ 04/ 09 3:58 pm

Connie Fournier wrote:Oh, I replied to that thread. I didn't know it disappeared afterward. I'll check into that.
If the post I referenced as having been 'disappeared' from this thread was actually posted to, then pulled from another thread, to be answered on this thread, then Houston has a problem.

I appreciate that moderation of a discussion forum is akin to herding cats with one hand while pulling them from a bag with the other, but if growing confusion about who said what and when is the end product of trying to contain a 'last man standing' confrontation between EK & JB, then the wrong tactics are being employed (again, in my own opinion).

I apologize to all for this deviation from the topic at hand.
Folks who are entirely up to date may have little problem following along, but casual observers to this most crucial facet of the free speech discussion may be perplexed by seemingly disjointed comments.
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Postby Connie Fournier » 10/ 04/ 09 4:03 pm

That photo of "Lemire" and Zundel is fake.

Marc was 17 years old when that photo was taken in 1992. Below is a photo of Marc a year LATER:

<img src=http://www.freedomsite.org/kinsella/lemire-93.jpg>

Interestingly, Warren Kinsella still has the fake photo on his site, but Nizkor took it down.

http://www.freedomsite.org/kinsella/picture_fraud.html
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Postby Mark Fournier » 10/ 04/ 09 4:07 pm

BlawBlaw wrote:But Lemire did write some of the posts examined in the CHRT hearing, and one was found to have violated s.13.

You are correct in saying some of the posts written by Lemire were examined by the CHRC/T. Some posts Connie and I have made have also been examined by the CHRC. Does that make us bigots? But you are wrong in implying the one post Lemire made that was ruled to be a violation of the unconstitutional Section 13 was written by him. It was written by someone else and reposted by Lemire. Six years of investigation failed to turn up anything Lemire wrote that violated Section 13, even by the ridiculous standards of the CHRC in one of the worst witch hunts of our time.

BlawBlaw wrote:He was also the webmaster of freedomsite...

That makes him a bigot? If someone posts something deemed to be bigotry on Free Dominion do Connie and I suddenly become bigots, or associate bigots?

BlawBlaw wrote:...and the last president of the Heritage Front from 2001 until it closed shop in 2005. It isn't mere guilt by association when you are the president of the association in question!

You are correct in saying being the president of an association is more than being smeared as guilty by association. But other that the words of Matt Lauder (which he is being sued over) and an accusation made in another unconstitutional proceeding, on what do you base your assertion that Lemire was ever the head of the Hertige Front? Other than Harry's claim that it is widely known that Lemire supposedly was the HF leader at one time, I have yet to see anything to support that accusation.

BlawBlaw wrote:Even the National Post's Johnathan Kay concluded that Lemire is a bigot.

http://www.nationalpost.com/related/lin ... ?id=397652
Jonathan Kay repeated the smear of Lemire but presented no information to back up his claim that Lemire was actually the leader of the government run Heritage Front. Why is it that none of the people repeating this claim bothers to back it up with evidence other than "everyone knows"?

Goebbels was right, if you repeat a lie often enough it becomes the truth.

BlawBlaw wrote:This isn't some baseless, leftist smear campaign.

Yes, it is. It came out of the CHRC and the pro-censorship camp and they are continuing with it to this day through people like Harry Abrams. They still have no credible evidence that Lemire somehow wrested control of the Hertiage Front from CSIS. The fact that someone like Jonathan Kay is still repeating this unsubstantiated claim merely demonstrates how effective the smear campaign has been. It was certainly effective enough to suck me in, I bought the smear lock, stock and barrel until I learned there was no evidence to back it up.

Here is another thing to consider. If Lemire is really some kind of Heritage Front bigot, why hasn't he been using this opportunity to promote the politics that have been assigned to him by others? Or why hasn't he just come forward and said, "Yes, at one time I believed all that bigotry stuff by I've changed and regret what I used to believe"? Why is he so adamantly sticking to his guns that he was never the leader of the H.F. when he has an easy out? Could it be that he refuses to do so because to do so would be to admit to something he didn't do?

If someone demonstrates to me that Marc Lemire was truly the head of the Heritage Front I will publicly admit that I was wrong. So far no one has been able to come up with any credible proof of the assertion and I won't participate in furthering the smear until that day comes.
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Postby Maikeru » 10/ 04/ 09 4:11 pm

BlawBlaw wrote:But Lemire did write some of the posts examined in the CHRT hearing, and one was found to have violated s.13.
He didn't write the one found by Member Hadjis to have violated Sec. 13
BlawBlaw wrote:He was also the webmaster of freedomsite and the last president of the Heritage Front from 2001 until it closed shop in 2005. It isn't mere guilt by association when you are the president of the association in question!.
The only reference I've seen to that assertion was <a href=http://anti-racistcanada.blogspot.com/2008/08/weve-been-following-marc-lemire.html>hearsay about hearsay by a fellow named Gerry Lincoln,</a> proudly posted by our buddies at ARC.

Have you found other confirmation ?
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Postby Maikeru » 10/ 04/ 09 4:16 pm

Jason Kauppinen wrote:Image
Why is this photo cropped?
My guess is to avoid showing a CSIS operatives' face, thus endangering his family...
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Postby TomFoolery » 10/ 04/ 09 4:17 pm

BlawBlaw, given that the CHRC is appealing the ruling in a 'real court', do you think this would open up the opportunity for Lemire to countersue for defamation and damages, if the gossip perpetuated by the CHRC et al. is untrue?
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Postby Narrow Back » 10/ 04/ 09 4:20 pm

Jason Kauppinen wrote:Image

Why is this photo cropped?


I just copied the image url from Kinsella's site. Is there a larger version of that image with more people in it? If there is, do you know where I can find it? This image is very important to Lemire's reputation. Once someone accepts that the image is Lemire it is impossible not to look at him with some disdain and suspicion.
I am a Canadian, free to speak without fear, free to worship in my own way, free to stand for what I think right, free to oppose what I believe wrong, or free to choose those who shall govern my country. This heritage of freedom I pledge to uphold for myself and all mankind.
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Postby Jason Kauppinen » 10/ 04/ 09 4:23 pm

Narrow Back wrote:
Jason Kauppinen wrote:Image

Why is this photo cropped?


I just copied the image url from Kinsella's site. Is there a larger version of that image with more people in it? If there is, do you know where I can find it? This image is very important to Lemire's reputation. Once someone accepts that the image is Lemire it is impossible not to look at him with some disdain and suspicion.


The image is 190 x 258 pixels. That's not a standard size for a digital photo.
Warren Kinsella is the Jar Jar Binks of Canadian Politics

1985 (OPC Minority)/1987 (Loss) /2003 (Loss)/2007 (Loss) --The OPC Red Tory record.

"Back in 1215, if you read Magna Carta Libertatum (my italics; I don’t think they had ’em back then), human rights meant the King was restrained by his subjects. Eight hundred years later, “human rights” CHRC-style means that the subjects get restrained by the Crown, in the form of Queen Jennifer. I liked it better the old way." -Mark Steyn
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Postby Mark Fournier » 10/ 04/ 09 4:26 pm

Maikeru wrote:
Jason Kauppinen wrote:Image
Why is this photo cropped?
My guess is to avoid showing a CSIS operatives' face, thus endangering his family...

When B'nai Brith was participating in the Lemire smear they had the whole picture up on their Nizkor website. I have no idea who the other people in the photo were, but they were not Marc Lemire. Incidently, Nizkor finally took down the picture (and their claim that the guy standing in it was Marc Lemire) when the real picture of Marc Lemire as a high-school student at the time refuted their claim. The fact that Warren Kinsella still has that picture on his website will play a role in Kinsella's future education on the concept of "knew or should have known".
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Postby Maikeru » 10/ 04/ 09 4:26 pm

Connie Fournier wrote:Interestingly, Warren Kinsella still has the fake photo on his site, but Nizkor took it down.
Warren also mounts toilet stall graffiti to entertain his viewers...
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Postby Fabulous Fred » 10/ 04/ 09 4:29 pm

Maikeru wrote:
Jason Kauppinen wrote:Why is this photo cropped?
My guess is to avoid showing a CSIS operatives' face, thus endangering his family...


Brilliant. I'll wager that is absolutely correct. Marc Lemire has been mugged by the government and I hope he exacts his revenge in spades. If arar was worth 10 mil, what will Marc get once the entire truth comes to light? Lemire has been deliberately tortured for 6 years right here in Kanada.
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Postby Jason Kauppinen » 10/ 04/ 09 4:29 pm

Mark Fournier wrote:When B'nai Brith was participating in the Lemire smear they had the whole picture up on their Nizkor website. I have no idea who the other people in the photo were, but they were not Marc Lemire.


*shrugs*

That's good enough for me.
Warren Kinsella is the Jar Jar Binks of Canadian Politics

1985 (OPC Minority)/1987 (Loss) /2003 (Loss)/2007 (Loss) --The OPC Red Tory record.

"Back in 1215, if you read Magna Carta Libertatum (my italics; I don’t think they had ’em back then), human rights meant the King was restrained by his subjects. Eight hundred years later, “human rights” CHRC-style means that the subjects get restrained by the Crown, in the form of Queen Jennifer. I liked it better the old way." -Mark Steyn
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