I'd like to get this topic stickied, and well moderated, so FDers can have easily accessible talking points on climate change.
The debate is just heating up and consolidated, targetted, information is going to be key to changing minds.
If you have anything to contribute, please do so; links to stories, factoids, talking points, charts and graphs: whatever you can provide will be helpful.
The following links are a collection of global warming related stories, including debunking/debating materials, gathered since the last quarter of 2006.
http://www.aggregator.ca/content/view/276/138/
http://www.aggregator.ca/content/view/573/138/
http://www.aggregator.ca/content/view/73/138/
http://www.aggregator.ca/content/view/274/
http://www.aggregator.ca/content/view/393/
http://www.aggregator.ca/content/view/431/138/
http://www.aggregator.ca/content/view/281/137/
http://www.aggregator.ca/content/view/258/137/
http://www.aggregator.ca/content/view/52/138/
Global Warming/Climate Change Info Packet
Global Warming/Climate Change Info Packet
by conscience » 01/ 05/ 07 3:52 pm
<a href="http://www.aggregator.ca"> <img src="http://www.aggregator.ca/images//gatorbar.jpg"> </a>
Opinions posted on Free Dominion are those of the individual posters and are not necessarily the opinion of Free Dominion or its operators.
This poster is of the opinion that Richard Warman is a felching fecalphiliac.
Opinions posted on Free Dominion are those of the individual posters and are not necessarily the opinion of Free Dominion or its operators.
This poster is of the opinion that Richard Warman is a felching fecalphiliac.
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by styky » 01/ 05/ 07 4:02 pm
I made it a sticky for you and you are right like it or not it will be a hot topic in next session.
Click here for FREEDOMINION FORUM RULES
All the great things are simple, and many can be expressed in a single word: freedom; justice; honor; duty; mercy; hope ~ Sir Winston Churchill
"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other peoples money." Margaret Thatcher They say it takes a minute to find a special person, an hour to appreciate them, a day to love them, but then an entire life to forget them.
All the great things are simple, and many can be expressed in a single word: freedom; justice; honor; duty; mercy; hope ~ Sir Winston Churchill
"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other peoples money." Margaret Thatcher They say it takes a minute to find a special person, an hour to appreciate them, a day to love them, but then an entire life to forget them.
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by bulldog905 » 01/ 05/ 07 4:05 pm
Why should anyone vote for any party that wants to pick their pocket to enrich Mo Strong, foreign despots, economic competitors, etc?
The CPC won't even come out against the greatest cash grab of all time.
It's no big deal who wins the next election.
All the parties agree on everything of substance.
Just differ a little on the sizzle and style.
The CPC won't even come out against the greatest cash grab of all time.
It's no big deal who wins the next election.
All the parties agree on everything of substance.
Just differ a little on the sizzle and style.
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by Droid1963 » 01/ 05/ 07 4:24 pm
Suppose we reverse our current position on the Kyoto Protocol, and endorse it 100%, as the Liberals indicate we should do....
Here's 10 questions all Canadians should have the answers to if an election is to be held over what is shaping up to be the #1 issue: the environment.
1) Who measures whether or not our Kyoto efforts are working?
2) Over what period?
3) Who decides on the "caps" assigned to companies and nations for emissions, and the "penalties" for non-compliance or non-achievement?
4) What would the value of those penalties be?
5) Where would the penalties be paid to, and from there, to whom?
6) How is the value of carbon determined for the world carbon-trading market we will presumably be "missing out on" by not being a party to Kyoto?
7) Can an individual invest in carbon or carbon credits on the European or Chicago Climate Exchanges, and if not, why not?
The carbon we're talking about trading... is it tangible like other traded commodities (gold... oil... pork bellies)?
9) If it's tangible, how is it obtained... if intangible, how is it measured?
10) If a nation is not achieving it's targets, and buys carbon credits from a nation that is, what is the net environmental impact of this financial transaction?
Here's 10 questions all Canadians should have the answers to if an election is to be held over what is shaping up to be the #1 issue: the environment.
1) Who measures whether or not our Kyoto efforts are working?
2) Over what period?
3) Who decides on the "caps" assigned to companies and nations for emissions, and the "penalties" for non-compliance or non-achievement?
4) What would the value of those penalties be?
5) Where would the penalties be paid to, and from there, to whom?
6) How is the value of carbon determined for the world carbon-trading market we will presumably be "missing out on" by not being a party to Kyoto?
7) Can an individual invest in carbon or carbon credits on the European or Chicago Climate Exchanges, and if not, why not?
The carbon we're talking about trading... is it tangible like other traded commodities (gold... oil... pork bellies)?
9) If it's tangible, how is it obtained... if intangible, how is it measured?
10) If a nation is not achieving it's targets, and buys carbon credits from a nation that is, what is the net environmental impact of this financial transaction?
Last edited by Droid1963 on 01/ 05/ 07 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by concan » 01/ 05/ 07 5:19 pm
bulldog905 wrote:It's no big deal who wins the next election.
It's kinda frightening how that sentiment reflects my personal feelings about current Canadian politics.
How many disillusioned last-time CPC voters you figure are there? Would you care just as little as me whether or not Mr. Dion becomes the next PM? I can't stand the guy but at the end of the day, does it matter? If anything a win for the Liberals with yet another Quebec PM for Canada would give our seperation sentiments more momentum.
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by concan » 01/ 05/ 07 5:22 pm
Droid1963 wrote:Suppose we reverse our current position on the Kyoto Protocol, and endorse it 100%, as the Liberals indicate we should do....
Kyoto is here to stay in some way or another. "Our current position" is NOT refusing to accept Kyoto. "Our current position" is that we are told to accept "climate change" and subsequently to swallow all the new taxes and restrictions that will go along with it.
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by styky » 01/ 05/ 07 5:26 pm
concan wrote:Droid1963 wrote:Suppose we reverse our current position on the Kyoto Protocol, and endorse it 100%, as the Liberals indicate we should do....
Kyoto is here to stay in some way or another. "Our current position" is NOT refusing to accept Kyoto. "Our current position" is that we are told to accept "climate change" and subsequently to swallow all the new taxes and restrictions that will go along with it.
I smell tax cuts turned into user fees in the name of climate change that will cost us even more.
Click here for FREEDOMINION FORUM RULES
All the great things are simple, and many can be expressed in a single word: freedom; justice; honor; duty; mercy; hope ~ Sir Winston Churchill
"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other peoples money." Margaret Thatcher They say it takes a minute to find a special person, an hour to appreciate them, a day to love them, but then an entire life to forget them.
All the great things are simple, and many can be expressed in a single word: freedom; justice; honor; duty; mercy; hope ~ Sir Winston Churchill
"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other peoples money." Margaret Thatcher They say it takes a minute to find a special person, an hour to appreciate them, a day to love them, but then an entire life to forget them.
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by bulldog905 » 01/ 05/ 07 5:44 pm
styky wrote:concan wrote:Droid1963 wrote:Suppose we reverse our current position on the Kyoto Protocol, and endorse it 100%, as the Liberals indicate we should do....
Kyoto is here to stay in some way or another. "Our current position" is NOT refusing to accept Kyoto. "Our current position" is that we are told to accept "climate change" and subsequently to swallow all the new taxes and restrictions that will go along with it.
I smell tax cuts turned into user fees in the name of climate change that will cost us even more.
Yup, and when the Libs get back in, we will have tax INCREASES and user fees.
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by Frankie » 01/ 05/ 07 5:58 pm
Great Idea. We often get headlines that make the fear industry thrive here at home.
Almost as soon as the Kyoto Protocol on global warming came into effect on February 15, Kashmir suffered the highest snowfall in three decades with over 150 killed, and Mumbai recorded the lowest temperature in 40 years. Had temperatures been the highest for decades, newspapers would have declared this was proof of global warming. But whenever temperatures drop, the press keeps quiet.
Things were different in 1940-70, when there was global cooling. Every cold winter then was hailed as proof of a coming new Ice Age. But the moment cooling was replaced by warming, a new disaster in the opposite direction was proclaimed.
A recent Washington Post article gave this scientist's quote from 1972. "We simply cannot afford to gamble. We cannot risk inaction. The scientists who disagree are acting irresponsibly. The indications that our climate can soon change for the worse are too strong to be reasonably ignored." The warning was not about global warming (which was not happening): it was about global cooling!
In the media, disaster is news, and its absence is not. This principle has been exploited so skillfully by ecological scare-mongers that it is now regarded as politically incorrect, even unscientific, to denounce global warming hysteria as unproven speculation.
Meteorologists are a standing joke for getting predictions wrong even a few days ahead. The same jokers are being taken seriously when they use computer models to predict the weather 100 years hence.
The models have not been tested for reliability over 100 years, or even 20 years. Different models yield variations in warming of 400%, which means they are statistically meaningless.
Wassily Leontief, Nobel prize winner for modeling, said this about the limits of models. "We move from more or less plausible but really arbitrary assumptions, to elegantly demonstrated but irrelevant conclusions." Exactly. Assume continued warming as in the last three decades, and you get a warming disaster. Assume more episodes of global cooling, and you get a cooling disaster.
In his latest best seller State of Fear, Michael Crichton does a devastating expose of the way ecological groups have tweaked data and facts to create mass hysteria. He points out that we know astonishingly little about the environment. All sides make exaggerated claims.
We know that atmospheric carbon is increasing. We are also in the midst of a natural warming trend that started in 1850 at the end of what is called the Little Ice Age. It is scientifically impossible to prove whether the subsequent warming is natural or man-made.
Greens say, rightly, that the best scientific assessment today is that global warming is occurring. Yet never in history have scientists accurately predicted what will happen 100 years later. A century ago no scientists predicted the internet, microwave ovens, TV, nuclear explosions or antibiotics. It is impossible, even stupid, to predict the distant future.
That scientific truth is rarely mentioned. Why? Because the global warming movement has now become a multi-billion dollar enterprise with thousands of jobs and millions in funding for NGOs and think-tanks, top jobs and prizes for scientists, and huge media coverage for predictions of disaster.
The vested interests in the global warming theory are now as strong, rich and politically influential as the biggest multinationals. It is no co-incidence, says Crichton, that so many scientists sceptical of global warming are retired professors: they have no need to chase research grants and chairs.
I have long been an agnostic on global warming: the evidence is ambiguous. But I almost became a convert when Greenpeace publicised photos showing the disastrously rapid retreat of the Upsala Glacier in Argentina. How disastrous, I thought, if this was the coming fate of all glaciers.
Then last Christmas, I went on vacation to Lake Argentina. The Upsala glacier and six other glaciers descend from the South Andean icefield into the lake. I was astounded to discover that while the Upsala glacier had retreated rapidly, the other glaciers showed little movement, and one had advanced across the lake into the Magellan peninsula. If in the same area some glaciers advance and others retreat, the cause is clearly not global warming but local micro-conditions.
Yet the Greenpeace photos gave the impression that glaciers in general were in rapid retreat. It was a con job, a dishonest effort to mislead. From the same icefield, another major glacier spilling into Chile has grown 60% in volume.
Greenpeace and other ecological groups have well-intentioned people with high ideals. But as crusaders they want to win by any means, honest or not. I do not like being taken for a ride, by idealists or anyone else.
We need impartial research, funded neither by MNCs, governmental groups or NGOs with private agendas. And the media needs to stop highlighting disaster scares and ignoring exposes of the scares.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... 034077.cms
Almost as soon as the Kyoto Protocol on global warming came into effect on February 15, Kashmir suffered the highest snowfall in three decades with over 150 killed, and Mumbai recorded the lowest temperature in 40 years. Had temperatures been the highest for decades, newspapers would have declared this was proof of global warming. But whenever temperatures drop, the press keeps quiet.
Things were different in 1940-70, when there was global cooling. Every cold winter then was hailed as proof of a coming new Ice Age. But the moment cooling was replaced by warming, a new disaster in the opposite direction was proclaimed.
A recent Washington Post article gave this scientist's quote from 1972. "We simply cannot afford to gamble. We cannot risk inaction. The scientists who disagree are acting irresponsibly. The indications that our climate can soon change for the worse are too strong to be reasonably ignored." The warning was not about global warming (which was not happening): it was about global cooling!
In the media, disaster is news, and its absence is not. This principle has been exploited so skillfully by ecological scare-mongers that it is now regarded as politically incorrect, even unscientific, to denounce global warming hysteria as unproven speculation.
Meteorologists are a standing joke for getting predictions wrong even a few days ahead. The same jokers are being taken seriously when they use computer models to predict the weather 100 years hence.
The models have not been tested for reliability over 100 years, or even 20 years. Different models yield variations in warming of 400%, which means they are statistically meaningless.
Wassily Leontief, Nobel prize winner for modeling, said this about the limits of models. "We move from more or less plausible but really arbitrary assumptions, to elegantly demonstrated but irrelevant conclusions." Exactly. Assume continued warming as in the last three decades, and you get a warming disaster. Assume more episodes of global cooling, and you get a cooling disaster.
In his latest best seller State of Fear, Michael Crichton does a devastating expose of the way ecological groups have tweaked data and facts to create mass hysteria. He points out that we know astonishingly little about the environment. All sides make exaggerated claims.
We know that atmospheric carbon is increasing. We are also in the midst of a natural warming trend that started in 1850 at the end of what is called the Little Ice Age. It is scientifically impossible to prove whether the subsequent warming is natural or man-made.
Greens say, rightly, that the best scientific assessment today is that global warming is occurring. Yet never in history have scientists accurately predicted what will happen 100 years later. A century ago no scientists predicted the internet, microwave ovens, TV, nuclear explosions or antibiotics. It is impossible, even stupid, to predict the distant future.
That scientific truth is rarely mentioned. Why? Because the global warming movement has now become a multi-billion dollar enterprise with thousands of jobs and millions in funding for NGOs and think-tanks, top jobs and prizes for scientists, and huge media coverage for predictions of disaster.
The vested interests in the global warming theory are now as strong, rich and politically influential as the biggest multinationals. It is no co-incidence, says Crichton, that so many scientists sceptical of global warming are retired professors: they have no need to chase research grants and chairs.
I have long been an agnostic on global warming: the evidence is ambiguous. But I almost became a convert when Greenpeace publicised photos showing the disastrously rapid retreat of the Upsala Glacier in Argentina. How disastrous, I thought, if this was the coming fate of all glaciers.
Then last Christmas, I went on vacation to Lake Argentina. The Upsala glacier and six other glaciers descend from the South Andean icefield into the lake. I was astounded to discover that while the Upsala glacier had retreated rapidly, the other glaciers showed little movement, and one had advanced across the lake into the Magellan peninsula. If in the same area some glaciers advance and others retreat, the cause is clearly not global warming but local micro-conditions.
Yet the Greenpeace photos gave the impression that glaciers in general were in rapid retreat. It was a con job, a dishonest effort to mislead. From the same icefield, another major glacier spilling into Chile has grown 60% in volume.
Greenpeace and other ecological groups have well-intentioned people with high ideals. But as crusaders they want to win by any means, honest or not. I do not like being taken for a ride, by idealists or anyone else.
We need impartial research, funded neither by MNCs, governmental groups or NGOs with private agendas. And the media needs to stop highlighting disaster scares and ignoring exposes of the scares.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... 034077.cms
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by rwebb » 01/ 05/ 07 7:02 pm
Frankie wrote:A recent Washington Post article gave this scientist's quote from 1972. "We simply cannot afford to gamble. We cannot risk inaction. The scientists who disagree are acting irresponsibly. The indications that our climate can soon change for the worse are too strong to be reasonably ignored." The warning was not about global warming (which was not happening): it was about global cooling!
The climate model was wrong, but the warning was just as true then as now: messing with the planet's atmosphere (which at this point no one denies we're doing) without understanding the climatological consequences (which we still don't fully understand, despite vast improvements in computer modelling) is irresponsible.
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by AlbertanFirst » 01/ 05/ 07 7:35 pm
Webb....it really is hard to take you seriously considering on other threads in the past you think Islam is morally equivelant to Judeo/Christianity........no better or no worse eh webb.....
Yeah....I think we can pretty well take a pass on whatever bs you are selling here and elsewhere.....
Remember people, in the 70's, the scam was global cooling...new ice age and other rubbish....now it is a new scam....meet the new boss...same as the old boss.....
Thankfully, their are honest scientists who are willing to speak out against the eco nuts and their deceptive agenda!
Yeah....I think we can pretty well take a pass on whatever bs you are selling here and elsewhere.....
Remember people, in the 70's, the scam was global cooling...new ice age and other rubbish....now it is a new scam....meet the new boss...same as the old boss.....
Thankfully, their are honest scientists who are willing to speak out against the eco nuts and their deceptive agenda!
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by bulldog905 » 01/ 05/ 07 7:37 pm
AlbertanFirst wrote:Webb....it really is hard to take you seriously considering on other threads in the past you think Islam is morally equivelant to Judeo/Christianity........no better or no worse eh webb.....
Yeah....I think we can pretty well take a pass on whatever bs you are selling here and elsewhere.....
Remember people, in the 70's, the scam was global cooling...new ice age and other rubbish....now it is a new scam....meet the new boss...same as the old boss.....
Thankfully, their are honest scientists who are willing to speak out against the eco nuts and their deceptive agenda!
Webb's a lib-leftist.
He makes no bones about it.
It's the one's pretending they are "conservative" who love Kyoto and Islamism that give me the willies.
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by AlbertanFirst » 01/ 05/ 07 7:43 pm
Good point Bulldog....always the greatest enemy is inside the camp!
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by Frankie » 01/ 05/ 07 7:49 pm
Here's another good link:
http://www.junkscience.com/
To further support the theory that warming is caused by solar activity, did you know that the icecaps on Mars have been shrinking too? So, it's either solar cycles or the Martian SUV market has been going nutso along with all those evil Martian businessmen and their CO2 spewing factories.
http://www.junkscience.com/
To further support the theory that warming is caused by solar activity, did you know that the icecaps on Mars have been shrinking too? So, it's either solar cycles or the Martian SUV market has been going nutso along with all those evil Martian businessmen and their CO2 spewing factories.
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